One of the great canards of this election season will be the battle cry that proponents of Proposition 8 are trying to limit the rights of individuals in our society. This is simply false. Before mid May, 2008 there was no protected genderless class who had a fundamental right to marry. This was a newly created protected legal class, and a newly created fundamental right as it related to that class, that had never existed before in America, and for the most part still does not, either in the United States or abroad.
Before May 15, 2008 same gender couples who wanted to register as domestic partners had the right to do so under California law, specfically Family Code section 297.5, which is relevant part states:
Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
This was the state of California law before its supreme court made up the new protected class and new fundamental rights in May, 2008. It continues to be the state of the law. In other words, same gender couples who elect not to be married, even under the newly created marriage status of the supreme court enjoy all the same rights and responsibilities as all married persons under the law. This is not now, and has never been about rights. It is about societal acceptance. And, you cannot impose that by way of judicial fiat.
So, when the battle cry of equal rights is raised, remember that under California law, all registered domestic partners, either same gender, or even opposite gender, would have the same legal rights and status as married persons.
Those persons whose rights have been impacted by this debate, and the California supreme court’s ruling are the rights of all California voters who in 2000 voted for Proposition 22 and the addition to California’s Family Code that specifically limited marriage to a man and a woman, as has been the understood definition in California law since its inception as a state.
Are you still not denying someone the right to get married in legal definition, based on their sexual preference?
Erik, No. I have said many, many times this issue is not about rights. Registered domestic partnerships in CA had all legal rights and responsibilities as do married couples. The issue promoted by those who advocate genderless marriage is social acceptance of a lifestyle most find unacceptable.
You can not impose social acceptance by judicial fiat. The “rights” battle cry is a smoke screen for that social acceptance.
I’m confused by you’re argument. You say the amendment doesn’t really change anything substantive, because gay couples already had rights as domestic partners. You also say that you “cannot impose” societal acceptance “by way of judicial fiat.”
It would seem that you think prop 8 will have no important effects at all. So why is it so important.
Kodos, I recommend http://whatisprop8.com/ to see a listing of some of the consequences of allowing gay marriage to be sanctioned by the state. I think some of those consequences are major concerns for a lot of people.
@rbaugh: Just about every one of those “consequences” is either a red herring or a flat out deception.
Churches will not lose their tax exemption, will not be forced to perform gay marriages, and cannot be sued for preaching against homosexual behavior. Why? The First Amendment of the Constitution protects them. Religious institutions will also still be able to continue to work within the bounds of their religious beliefs. The courts have repeatedly protected private institutions who have policies that are based on religious belief.
The fact that the Yes on Prop 8 campaign is resorting to such deceptive fear-mongering is disturbing. The fact that so many people see them as fact is really frightening.
As for the issue of homosexual couple’s rights, the domestic partnership statute isn’t enough. They had fewer rights than married couples, especially when they crossed state lines (even when crossing into a state that supports gay marriage).
Civil Unions was brought up as a compromise, but even that isn’t enough. By giving heterosexual couples rights based on their “married” status and forcing homosexual couples to enter a “civil union” in order to gain the same rights, they are being relegated to second-class citizen status. It’s little more than a case of “separate but equal”, the discriminatory practice exercised in the segragated South that we all know was morally wrong.
@cxm: You say that “the First Amendment of the Constitution protects [religions institutions”. That is not necessarily true. The 1st amendment preserves a “federal right”, but in many cases, and probably in this one, the “state protections” can trump “federal rights”.
your arguement does not make sense at all, your facts are way wrong, people are so confused with all of this bullcrap they dont even know what to vote yes or no its people like u that confuse the crap outta people. learn to express your thoughts in a less confusing, misleading way
rbaugh, the “What is Prop 8″ website is written by proponents of Proposition 8, all quoting an article published on NPR.org that is written by a proponent, and listing legal battles that all began BEFORE marrriage became legal for all citizens of Massachusetts.
I think we all learned from the ruling in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka that separate is NOT equal. Without the right to marry, couples pay higher taxes, cannot benefit from social security and other benefits yet are still responsible for financial liabilities of their partner, and, most importantly, are not recognized as being equal. Denying rights goes against the Equal Protection Clause.
If you are going to read “What is Prop 8″ website, I recommend also reading http://www.noonprop8.com/about/fact-vs-fiction – so you can get both sides and get a better understanding of the issues
You are so right! Thanks for the blog. Your comments are very thoughtful.
I feel sorry for same-sex couples because same-sex mar-riage proponents have been duped…they think they are fighting for equality or love but that is not true and here’s why…
It seems that prop. 8 isn’t really about love.
Prop. 8 is about freedom for ALL Americans.
Some of the biggest pushers on prop. 8 do not care about same-sex relationships, they care about their agenda to hijack our freedoms, including those of same-sex couples.
If prop. 8 fails it will hurt the freedoms of you, me, AND same-sex couples.
Yes! Prop. 8 is a vote for freedom. There is a better way we can all live together in peace rather than demand freedoms be surrendered.
Check it out for yourself instead of opinions we need more facts: http://www.ifprop8fails.com, http://www.preservingmarriage.com, and http://www.protectmarriage.com
CXM -
I’m sorry that it frightens you that people believe such concerns. What frightens me is that such “red herrings” and “deceptions” are already happening in our state and our country. A few are listed here:
http://www.whatisprop8.com/Legal-Battles
and here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486191
Perhaps you will say that these types of lawsuits will happen regardless of whether or not Proposition 8 passes, and I would regretfully have to agree with you. However, passing Prop 8 will give moral and religious organizations and individuals a more defensible position in such situations.
I went to the “whatisprop8″ website and the six “consequnces” listed are just plain insubstantial! And as for kids having to learn about same sex marriage is a flat out lie! Parents are able to decide what their children will and will not learn! As for the church being forced to perform marriages for same sex couples…that’s a laugh! Seperation of Church and State…need I say more!
This youtube was awesome. It talks about how we can all live in peace and love with prop.8 stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA
@CXM
“Churches will not lose their tax exemption, will not be forced to perform gay marriages, and cannot be sued for preaching against homosexual behavior. Why? The First Amendment of the Constitution protects them.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but is not some free speech limited by hate crime laws? If homosexual marriage is a protected class isn’t it a short hop to prosecution of religious speech condemning homosexual behavior as hate speech?
“The courts have repeatedly protected private institutions who have policies that are based on religious belief. ”
Really? The fact that Catholic Charities in MA was sued and ultimately had to cease operations in the state because they wouldn’t provide adoptions to gay couples is a troubling precedent. I see the court’s ruling as a wedge opening a crack that will be taken advantage of by groups eager to use legal action to advance social agendas. Can you really control or foresee the consequences?
“They had fewer rights than married couples, especially when they crossed state lines (even when crossing into a state that supports gay marriage).”
Does that have anything to do with the argument at hand? Does changing a homosexuals status from Domestic Partner to Married Couple affect their legal standing in other states whatsoever?
“By giving heterosexual couples rights based on their “married” status and forcing homosexual couples to enter a “civil union” in order to gain the same rights, they are being relegated to second-class citizen status.”
Second-class citizen status in what way? By limiting access to legal rights and benefits? Not according to Family Code section 297.5. In the court of public opinion? Really? In who’s mind would their status be elevated by changing the title from Domestic Partner to Marriage?
Loving vs Virginia. Read up on it… Same damn thing 30 years later… just different targets. Those same “consequences” were brought up back then.
Whenever you reserve a right for one group of people and then say that another group doesn’t “need” it… that’s wrong. We all deserve the same rights under the law.
Now, as far as tax status… I’m sure there are some golf courses that still don’t allow colored people either. And as long as they don’t accept tax dollars that’s ok. If a church wants to remain bigoted, that’s their right, just don’t claim tax exempt, as if you were there for everyone, and not just the people you liked.
Okay, first off, this article is so blatantly wrong it is ridiculous. By saying that Prop 8 doesn’t take away peoples rights is just the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Umm… gay people just received the RIGHT to marry in California, and what will this Proposition do? Take away that right! HELLO! Being gay is NOT a choice. Do you honestly think that gay people just wake up in the morning one day and say “Hmm… you know what I think I will be gay today, I really would like the opportunity to have to come out to my friends and family and possibly be alienated from them.” If you are taking away these people’s rights based on something in their brain that was biologically pre-determined well, lets think what else is pre-determined… hmm… skin color maybe? eye color? Okay from now on, Asian people, or black people, or people with blue eyes, are not allowed to marry. Sounds a bit Nazi-ish now doesn’t it? VOTE NO ON PROP 8.
Oh and by the way, Prop 8 doesn’t take away freedoms from heterosexual couples. It only makes everyone finally be on an even playing ground without any form of prejudice.
The ENTIRE COUNTRY OF FRANCE PROHIBITS SAME SEX MARRIAGE!!
Why? They based their decision on scientific research that states it isn’t beneficial to France’s children. Get the FACTS before you vote. Please. For America’s children.
Go here: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006_docs/Francesummary.pdf
To Heather at 12:41 on October 24th:
Since there are actual genes that have been identified by scientists that are within the human body which determine your skin color, hair color, eye color, whether you’re left handed and whether you’re a male or female, why haven’t the identified the “homosexual” gene yet? Maybe because it doesn’t exist! Homosexuality is NOT something you are born with, it’s something you choose to do. Yes, gay people CAN wake up and DECIDE not to be gay, and it has been done! I have never seen someone wake up and decide not to have blue eyes (well, they can if they put on contacts…), or someone wake up and decide NOT to be a woman (unless they pay for really expensive surgery) or someone wake up and decide NOT to be black (oh, wait, there IS Michael Jackson…).
Greetings from Australia!
I encourage you all to view a documentary recently broadcast in Australia. It follows the life of various children brought up in very disturbing, abusive households. They were being raped, sexually abused etc by their natural parents and countless hetrosexual foster parents. In the four cases profiled, the children ended up being fostered by same sex couples and from that moment on, enjoyed a life full of support, love, safe environment, education etc. It did not matter to those children that their parents were of the same sex, it just mattered that they were loved and safe. I believe God would look favorably on those same sex couples for providing a loving and nurturing environment for those children. In American there seems to be so much hate toward many different groups. May I ask everyone who is supporting Prop 8 in the US, if they would rather send those abused children back to the original household? Things are not always black & white and the message I clearly get out of the bible is to treat your neighbors as you would like to be treated and to love everybody equally from the prisoner to the saint. We now know that gay people make up approx 11% of the population. I also do not believe that Gad made a mistake with 11% of the population. It is now scientifically proven that it homosexuality is not a choice but a genetic make up.
Best of luck with the election!
Cheers
David
Hey Dave,
I love your selective use of the Bible, and speaking for God.
Definately Yes on Prop 8, you convinced me. Thanks !!!
I really don’t get CA anymore(In some areas). I grew up knowing that marrage is between man and a women. I was later tought by my own Parents that there are people who do same sex marrage. They let me think about it for a wile and I ask them. Isn’t that a sin. They replyed “Yes it is in our faith but do not become norrow minded. It may be a sin but it is not THE sin. Nor should re hate them. They have there freedom to love the same gender” Those words really open my mind to not be like most of my friends who don’t like gay people at all. I pity my friends who think that. And then there is my other side of friends I love with all my heart who are ethr married now or is in love with the same gender. And they don’t belive how people can be soo cruel to them. Sure Im straight and I never love another guy besides them being like my brothers. But dose that mean I hate them for being gay just because I vote yes? Im voting yes because I know what is right. Young as I may be I know what I belive in. When I see those out side with there NO on prop 8 signs up I do not Curse at them for not beliveing in what I belive in. Some do to me and I can on’y look at them and ask them “why hate me when I love you”. Why is it also Politics so badly want to be right or win. Just because some one agrees with you dosn’t make it right. Now all my gay friends will tell you that them being homosexuality is there own choice that they were not born like it they choice to love there partners now. that YouTube video that Abby put up is true. Belive me or not but I have a friend that lives up there and he was so in rage when he was told that parents had no right to pull or get a notice in school about homosexuality. Evan about the churches closing down. MY friend Eric has seen his church that he was helping be built. Not by brick but spiritly be built with its growing comunity. It was sued by a couple who wanted to get married and the Pastor at the church told them its agents there faith and that he must decline. Well sadly enough the couple won the battle. And indeed the church had to start paying tax because it was no longer part of a non profit org. I was Voted NO on prop 8 when I saw there add on tv telling me that prop 8 is not allowing gays to get married at all. Im agents that. I belive they have a right to get married. I do not belive tho it should be force to be learn in schools and private schools. And the people I see rallying out side are no more older then 20. Now most of those kids same age as me think wat I thought it was about. But I was raised up to do what is right for those I love. And those who are reading this evan tho I don’t know you or see youI love you as a person. And yes this is a very long message to read and its from a young kid what the heck do I know right? Well I know alot more then most adults I talk too. Because I do not behae like I did when I was a child. In te bible it says “When I was a child I behaved like a child I talk like a child and reasond like a child but now that I am a man I have left all my childish ways behind me” or something alung those lines. I do know that not every one belives in God or just belive in him not the church but really read the bible. You may just see some good words in there. But in the end of the Prop 8 debait. If it dosn’t pass and what happens on the Site “WhatIsProp8.com” says happens. Just please think to your self. Was I supporting the right thing. Was I supporting what was said? Im not saying prop 8 is right nor is it wrong. Only time will tell. But The Suprme Court judges who took it out evan tho the people have CA have already spooken I do belive was wrong. And from that moment just because they didn’t like the out come change it is Abuse of power I belive. They had a chance to vote bu because what they voted on did pass they I guess feel they can over turn the ballets. I am my own Voice. I am my own Vote. No one can change my Ideals nor can they take my mind. If Prop 8 passes again and the court judge again take it out. I will tell you right now. I as an american will find a way in my power evan if its just my voice I will find a way to get them out of office. Hard to belive at the age of 14 I dream about being a Politic. And I havea long time befor I reach that dream unless they allow 18 year olds like me to become one. I never seen it done ^-^ Remmber tho we are our own voice our own vote our own person. We belive what we want too. Some of want to belive anything that gose to our side of thinking. No one is perfect.
There will be people out there who will try to take what I say here and now and turn it agents me there will be people puting 1% trueth and 99% lies to make that 99% look true like that 1% but always be aware. There is a quote I live by in my daily life. It says “Do not deprive a man of hope or his faith, It might be all he has left”
Sorry for the few type os I made in my upper post Spelling isn’t one of my strong points in school so please understand. if you see a word like “on’y” I have a new keyboard and I meant to say “Only”
Also
God Bless, stay safe and please take care.
I agree, this has always been about acceptance of a questionable lifestyle. This is the most perverse religious persecution I’ve ever seen. It comes under the guise of alleged victimhood. Somehow, being Gay is the new N***** and that is BS. This isn’t about love, this isn’t about rights, it’s about complete validation by way of twisted law, while eventually taking away the rights of others, namely those who hold to sincere religious beliefs. No, the Constitution will not protect them after you’re through pushing to have them silenced as “preachers and rabbis of hate.” Why? Because if you’re as “equal” as others, why should you be singled out or have your lifestyle scrutinized? Just wait and see. With the leftist press in your pocket, it’s an inevitability.
Just because MOST do not share the belief that Gay and Lesbian lifestyles are natural doesn’t mean they are hate mongers. Forget religion, social science has proven repeatedly the burden of such lifestyles on society. It doesn’t work!
However, I must say this. Someone in here wrote that you are not born Gay, but you choose it. I think both arguments don’t make sense. I believe our sexuality is far more dynamic and complex, than the simplicity we render it to be. I believe we are influenced by a great number of people and things from when we are in the womb. I believe the hatred directed to gays and lesbians has hendered us from being compassionate enough to deal with the issue with love and truth.